Re: OT: offending sig + headers
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 10:47:16PM -0400, Derek Martin wrote:
> > No. I don't demand that people be humble. I was talking more about the
> > problem that you've stopped listening to people because you're smarter.
> > You're not so smart, after all.
>
> I haven't stopped listening... but people do tend to keep repeating
> the same arguments that I've already rehashed a billion times over the
> last 5 years.
Yes, you have stopped listening. Otherwise it would have penetrated that
whatever the technical merits of your "solution" you are still making
people unhappy after 5 years. From what others tell me, these complaints
go back to 2003, if not sooner.
> Not much has really happened with regard to fighting spam in the last
> few years. Filters have improved, but they're still not good enough,
> and probably never will be. Any time a mail is filtered to
> /dev/null, you simply can not be sure it was not a mail you wanted --
> it's all too easy for some unexpected condition to throw a wrench in
> your filtering machine, proverbially speaking.
I never advocated filtering. I don't use it myself. But spam fighting
techniques *have* evolved in the last several years. But once again,
this is beside the point. If email and mailing lists become completely
unusable due to spam, unless you are willing to behave poorly yourself,
then just bow out. Somehow the rest of us struggle by. I manage with
hardly any spam. If you're a sys admin, and you're good at what you do,
then I must be an absolute genius. And I'm not even a sysadmin!
> > If you're pissing people off just by participating, you might take a
> > second to consider that you, a single person with odd ideas, might
> > actually be more wrong than everyone else in the community.
>
> I have taken far more than a second to consider that... [strawman
> deleted] I can deal with a few people on a mailing list thinking I'm
> crazy.
The concept deserves more careful consideration. It's not about being
crazy. It's about being rude. Inconsiderate.
> My methods are odd, but they are also the only solution that works for
> me, because I simply must not lose mail. I rely on it way too
> heavily. The benefits of my methods (to me) are undeniable.
Your methods are not odd. Others have used them. The same thing
would occur to almost anyone in a few minutes, and be rejected because
it's plain bad behavior.
> If a few people on the list are offended that they can't easily
> contact me privately, I can live with that, because frankly *I don't
> want them to*, generally speaking. I don't think that should
> preclude me from participating in public forums such as this one.
> Indeed, forum software exists that by design hides the identity and
> contact info of the participants, for exactly that reason.
IOW, despite the accepted norms for *this* community, you choose to act
is a way that does not fit, and that has annoyed people around the net
for 5 years? Is this reasonable, do you think?
You're certainly free to start an anonymous mutt phpbb forum (or
whatever), but instead you choose to not play nice *here*, and then
blame your own bad actions on the spammers when nobody else seems to
need such extreme measures.
> Unfortunately, the mutt
> user community does not use such a mechanism (though honestly, I much
> prefer e-mail, so I'm glad of that -- still waiting for anonymizing
> mailing list management software).
I'm glad this community operates as-is. For the most part, this list is
a friendly and helpful place. Mostly people behave themselves and
therefore respect each other. The largely anonymous web BB sites I've
seen are not nearly as well behaved.
> A mailing list is a public forum, and the discussions that stem from
> it should be held publicly.
I agree. Yet with my public, reachable address I've had very little
trouble with private emails. A few "me too" or "you're wrong" emails a
year don't bother me much. They are not, after all, spam. They certainly
cannot be blamed on spammers.
> Remember that this (sub)thread started because Thomas essentially
> attacked my methods, by calling my sig offensive. Had he not done so,
> this thread never would have happened, and you would be none the wiser
> about my arrogant nature (well, unless you've been around for a
> while -- certain hot button topics come up here from time to time).
Yes. For some people, the same topics come up over and over again
throughout the years, and someone else is always to blame.
> I don't see any reason why anyone should have any objection to my
> desire to not receive personal mail from people on the list. The
> whole idea seems inane, particularly given the inherently public
> nature of this forum. Can you explain it?
I would have no problem with it at all, if only you would stop posting.
Lurk to your heart's content. Go post on an anonymous forum somewhere
instead. It should be your element, and exactly the kind of community
that you should enjoy.
> My sig is a concise statement of that fact, along with a concise
> explanation of why. I hardly think anyone should find that offensive,
> and one might argue that the very reason they do might be because
> they think they know better than I do, and think my methods are
> contemptable. Just as you accuse me of the same.
People continue to find your sig offensive. Though I did not say
anything initially, I did too (as you may have guessed). I suspect many
people who have not said anything find it offensive. That this keeps
coming up over the years should give you a hint that it is, in fact,
offensive to many people, though you may have only the purest intentions.
> By contrast, I have not bashed anyone else's chosen method of fighting
> spam; and indeed they all have their own merits. I've simply said
> that mine is better from a technical standpoint, which it is, because
> it's a more complete solution. I see no reason to be offended about
> that, either.
Why would you bash other methods? They're not in your face, after all.
You've CC'd me on every message, even though you wouldn't have accepted
the same. Were you uncomfortable with my greylisting? Did it bother you
unduly to get whitelisted, automatically?
> > Do you understand that other people don't seem to like the way you're
> > operating? Do you see that even if you explain why to people now, that
> > you're going to irritate somebody tomorrow and next week and a year from
> > now?
>
> Sure. I can be very irritating sometimes. And also lots of people
> get irritated by the silliest of things. If you go through life
> worrying about the possibility of offending people, you'll never
> interact with anyone, because you have no idea what will offend some
> people.
Yeah, everyone can be irritating sometimes. Yeah. But if random people
over a long period of time tell you that you smell funny you really
should consider doing something about it instead of thinking it's their
problem.
> No, that I don't see at all. I don't see how my refusal to post from
> a valid address could possibly harm anyone but me, and I stipulate
> that it does not harm me. As hard as I have tried to understand the
> notion that my sig is offensive, I can't escape the belief that people
> who are offended by this are just being silly.
I have this picture of fingers in ears and the sound "LA LA LA LA"
> > I'm probably wasting my time here, as you've likely had similar
> > discussions and not learned the important lessons yet.
>
> And apparently, given that I'm well beyond my developmental years, I
> probably never will, in your eyes. But in truth, you have no idea
> what I've learned, and the lessons I value as important may be very
> different from the ones you value. Whatever I have or have not
> learned, I have acheived long ago what I consider to be "success" and
> continue to enjoy it, and for the most part I'm happy with that, and
> I'm happy with who I am.
>
> So, there's that.
Of course I don't know what you've learned. Neither do you have a clue
what I've learned. Cool. But I still see what you do, out here in
public, and that's the part that seems to irritate me and more than a
few others.
--
Darrin Chandler | Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG
dwchandler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation