[ga] Re: [governance] RE: [Ecommerce] ICC Seeks U.N. Takeover While Excluding ICANN, U.S. Government from Meeting

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

William and all,

  I agree with you here William.  However ICANN desperately needs
strong oversight.  It has not been getting that form DOC/NTIA nearly to
the extent it should.  As a result the stakeholder/users have been
disinfranchized on a global scale, and much damage has already been
done as well as a uncertain perception of the future is now, and has
been in full swing.

 However I don't believe most US stakeholders/users will be comfortable
with the ICC or the ITU having an effectual veto power of policy considerations.

William Drake wrote:

> Wolfgang,
>
> Thanks for the info.  But I don't really see how this is different from what
> I said.  Under their proposal as you describe it, the TF would be used to
> discuss the issues and maybe make some nonbinding recommendations, not
> become some sort of permanent bureaucracy with oversight of ICANN as was
> reported in the IHT.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wolfgang Kleinwächter [mailto:wolfgang@xxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 11:13 AM
> > To: William Drake
> > Cc: New, William; Rutkowski, Tony; essential ecom; General Assembly of
> > the DNSO; Anriette Esterhuysen; Governance
> > Subject: Re: [governance] RE: [Ecommerce] ICC Seeks U.N. Takeover While
> > Excluding ICANN, U.S. Government from Meeting
> >
> >
> > I was with the Press Conference where Cattaui and Al Ghazaleh talked
> > about ICANN and had also a talk to Cattaui later. My interpretation is
> > different. After the IHT report from Tuesday, Al Ghazaleh was more
> > specific, moving a little bit backwards and saying that the UN ICT TF
> > meeting end of March in NY could be used to discuss the issue, not to
> > put the new group under the TF. One could imagine, that the TF is used
> > a springboard to something new. In the shadow of an existing group
> > nobody would start a big discussion about composition or so and then it
> > can grow bottom up. Another option is to have no formal group but, as
> > the resolution says, an open process with a small facilitating team
> > which summarizes and structures reports from discussions.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > wolfgang
> >
> > On lørdag, dec 20, 2003, at 10:35 Europe/Copenhagen, William Drake
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > William, thanks for the additional background.  As always, good stuff.
> > >
> > > I'm a bit surprised that Cattaui went ahead and publicly endorsed the
> > > notion
> > > that the UN working group should be under the UNICT TF.  The issue is
> > > still
> > > unresolved, so some governments may not welcome business' preemptive
> > > intervention endorsing a particular solution while they are still
> > > sorting
> > > things out.  Since there is no obvious cost or benefit to the private
> > > sector
> > > in doing it this way rather than as a separate body under Anan's
> > > auspices,
> > > one suspects this was a gesture to her colleague Abu-Ghazaleh.  If
> > > there's
> > > one thing WSIS demonstrates, it's that it's reasonably easy to make
> > > gestures
> > > when the stakes are low.
> > >
> > > Anyway, your reportage seems consistent with what I said other day.
> > > She
> > > endorsed the UNICT TF for multistakeholder "discussions" about
> > > governance
> > > issues but insists that "businesses do not seek the creation of a new
> > > organization to oversee the Internet," and that "The ICC does not
> > > support
> > > any kind of governance issue being put into any kind of
> > > intergovernmental
> > > hands."  ANY kind might be a bit strong, but the position is clear
> > > enough to
> > > put an end to the speculation about ICC's position that started this
> > > thread.
> > > ICC is NOT calling for the UNICT TF to have operational "oversight" of
> > > ICANN, as Jennifer Schenker of the International Herald Tribune
> > > reported.
> > >
> > > The press coverage of WSIS has been pretty bad, entirely fixated on
> > > controversies (to be expected) but often sloppy on important details.
> > > Having sat through five weeks of preparatory meetings it's not obvious
> > > to me
> > > how many of the reporters running around screaming "IMMINENT UN
> > > TAKEOVER OF
> > > THE INTERNET!!" could have actually sat through the plenaries and
> > > working
> > > groups and carefully digested the various positions being staked out,
> > > the
> > > different coalitions being formed, and the prospects for anything
> > > really
> > > happening.  It's clear that there are a bunch of developing countries,
> > > plus
> > > China and France, that want to talk about the need to put in place
> > > intergovernmental rules for a host of issues that fall under the
> > > rubric of
> > > Internet/ICT governance, and it also seems clear that for better or
> > > worse,
> > > no such thing will happen without the support of the US, other key OECD
> > > governments, and the private sector.  So we'll have some lengthy
> > > debates in
> > > the working group and WSIS that will hopefully be constructive rather
> > > than
> > > just dumb, and maybe some shifts and compromises on the way certain
> > > issues
> > > are managed, but I wouldn't expect a cosmic battle of Wagnerian
> > > proportions
> > > that results in ECOSOC deciding how TLDs should be managed etc.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Bill Drake
> > >
> > >>
> > >>> Hi, this is William New, reporter at Tech Daily. I attended WSIS and
> > >>> reported on Abu-Ghazaleh proposal and directly as Catuai her
> > >> position. This
> > >>> is reported in several stories in Tech Daily from last week,
> > >> one of which I
> > >>> included below. I'm not sure how to put it on the listserve but
> > >> feel free to
> > >>> do so if it's helpful.
> > >>>
> > >>> NATIONAL JOURNAL'S TECHNOLOGY DAILY
> > >>> 12-10-2003
> > >>>
> > >>> International: U.S. Announces $400 Million For Overseas Tech
> > >>> Investment
> > >>>
> > >>> GENEVA--The Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), a
> > >> U.S. agency
> > >>> that insures private-sector investment in risky countries, announced
> > >>> Wednesday that it would establish a $400 million support facility to
> > >>> encourage U.S investment in the telecommunications and information
> > >>> technology sectors of emerging markets.
> > >>>
> > >>> The announcement comes a day after a gritty compromise was reached by
> > >>> negotiators here at the World Summit on the Information Society to
> > >>> study
> > >>> the issue of whether a new global development fund for information
> > >>> and
> > >>> communications technology is needed. The United States had resisted
> > >>> the
> > >>> developing country proposal for a new fund, preferring instead to
> > >>> strengthen existing funds.
> > >>>
> > >>> In a press briefing Wednesday, OPIC President and CEO Peter Watson
> > >>> said
> > >>> the new money is "part of an ongoing effort" to fund ICT
> > >>> development.
> > >>>
> > >>> Debate also resurfaced Wednesday over Internet governance, as
> > >>> International Chamber of Commerce (ICC) President Maria Cattaui
> > >>> publicly
> > >>> endorsed a proposal to designate the U.N. Information and
> > >>> Communications
> > >>> Technology Task Force for multi-stakeholder discussions about
> > >>> governance
> > >>> issues.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cattaui said in a press briefing that the responsibility for
> > >> the directory
> > >>> of Internet domain names held by the Internet Corporation for
> > >>> Assigned
> > >>> Names and Numbers (ICANN) is separate from the emerging
> > >> governance issues
> > >>> such as criminality, intellectual property and security.
> > >>>
> > >>> She argued that the Internet is a "unique" mix of public and private
> > >>> components operated in a cooperative, not dictated, way. For
> > >> instance, the
> > >>> basic protocols of the Internet are not owned by anyone, "they are
> > >>> just
> > >>> there," and therefore a public good, she said.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cattaui emphasized that businesses do not seek the creation of a new
> > >>> organization to oversee the Internet, but rather a platform for
> > >>> discussion. "It is premature to talk about an organization," she
> > >>> said.
> > >>> Cattaui also stressed that there is no parallel for the Internet to
> > >>> telecommunications networks.
> > >>>
> > >>> The proposal was made in response to the weekend agreement by WSIS
> > >>> negotiators to form a group to study Internet governance over the
> > >>> coming
> > >>> year. Talal Abu-Ghazaleh, vice chairman of the U.N. ICT Task Force,
> > >>> who
> > >>> made the proposal in question, stressed that he does not wish
> > >> to criticize
> > >>> the United States.
> > >>>
> > >>> "We all owe a great debt to the United States of America for giving
> > >>> us
> > >>> this great gift," he said in the briefing. "That said, this
> > >> great American
> > >>> gift needs to be internationalized."
> > >>>
> > >>> Cattuai said in an interview, "The ICC does not support any kind of
> > >>> governance issue being put into any kind of intergovernmental
> > >> hands." With
> > >>> ICANN President Paul Twomey sitting nearby, Cattuai praised ICANN's
> > >>> work
> > >>> to bring various constituencies together to focus on the domain name
> > >>> system. But ICANN is not expected to deal with standards and
> > >>> protocols,
> > >>> which should be left in the hands of existing technical and
> > >>> engineering
> > >>> organizations, she said.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cattuai and Twomey agreed separately that they would not seek to
> > >>> expand
> > >>> ICANN's mission to cover emerging governance issues. "We are not
> > >>> looking
> > >>> to expand our charter," Twomey said in an interview. Cattuai
> > >> said she did
> > >>> not expect a decision on the working group at this week's meeting.
> > >>>
> > >>> by William New
> > >>>
> > >>> National Journal's Technology Daily
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:07 PM
> > >>> To: William Drake
> > >>> Cc: john bolk; ecommerce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; icann board address;
> > >>> General Assembly of the DNSO; Paul Twomey
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Ecommerce] ICC Seeks U.N. Takeover While Excluding
> > >>> ICANN,
> > >>> U.S. Government from Meeting
> > >>>
> > >>> William and all,
> > >>>
> > >>>   I also have no idea of exactly what Abu-Ghazaleh said to anyone
> > >>> other
> > >>> than what has been reported to me form trusted INEGroup folks that
> > >>> were in attendance.  It is clear enough to me and our members, that
> > >>> some factions loyal to the UN and/or are associated closely with the
> > >>> UN
> > >>> that a desire to do a power grab by one of more UN organizations
> > >>> is factual.  It is also clear to me and almost all of our members
> > >>> that ICANN's leadership from it's very beginnings is less than
> > >>> adequate or responsible to ALL stakeholders/users, either
> > >>> commercially oriented or not.
> > >>>
> > >>>   As such it if logical to consider either dismantling ICANN
> > >>> as it is currently or have all of its current BoD and staff members
> > >>> resign and hold elections where any and all stakeholders/users
> > >>> of interest or interested parties elect whom they wish to assume
> > >>> ICANN's duties as outlined in the White paper and MoU.
> > >>>
> > >>> William Drake wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I of course don't know what Talal Abu-Ghazaleh actually said
> > >> to Jennifer
> > >>>> Schenker of the International Herald Tribune, or how she
> > >> understood it.
> > >>> But
> > >>>> in her article she has him proposing that ICANN should be
> > >> "placed under
> > >>> the
> > >>>> umbrella" of and subject to the "oversight" of the UN's ICT
> > >> Task Force, of
> > >>>> which he is Vice Chair.  This implies that the Task Force
> > >> would have some
> > >>>> sort of actual authority over ICANN on an ongoing basis.
> > >> Hence, we now
> > >>> have
> > >>>> people speculating here about a UN power grab with corporate
> > >>>> backing.
> > >>> This
> > >>>> would be a rather strange bedfellows scenario.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> However, if this is really what Abu-Ghazaleh told Schenker or what
> > >>>> he
> > >>>> proposed in the Dec. 9 private meeting, it is not what he has said
> > >>>> in
> > >>>> public.  For example, in his plenary speech at WSIS
> > >>>> http://businessatwsis.net/mainpages/position/policy/tag.php  he
> > >>>> merely
> > >>>> stated that, "The UN ICT TF provides a dynamic
> > >> multi-stakeholders forum to
> > >>>> debate issues concerning the Internet as called for by the Prepcom
> > >>>> resolution. ICANN performed well under its mandate. What is not in
> > >>>> its
> > >>>> mandate is yet to be addressed."  Similarly, on the ICC site
> > >> (he chairs
> > >>> the
> > >>>> ICC's E-Business IT & Telecom Commission), his proposal is
> > >> described as a
> > >>>> suggestion that the TF could be "a platform for future discussions"
> > >>>> on
> > >>>> Internet governance, and he is quoted as saying that there should be
> > >>>> continuing "operational management of the internet under
> > >> private sector
> > >>>> leadership, driven by the dynamics of business."
> > >>>>
> > >> http://www.iccwbo.org/home/news_archives/2003/stories/tag.asp.   Also
> > >> on
> > >>> the
> > >>>> ICC site, one finds a piece from Dec. 10 called "Don't
> > >> sidetrack ICANN is
> > >>>> business plea"
> > >>>>
> > >> http://www.iccwbo.org/home/news_archives/2003/stories/icann.asp in
> > >> which
> > >>> he
> > >>>> states that "companies engaged in e-commerce wanted to preserve the
> > >>> existing
> > >>>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers," and ICC
> > >> Secretary
> > >>>> General Maria Livanos Cattaui warns "against proposals to
> > >> replace ICANN
> > >>> with
> > >>>> any intergovernmental organization to manage root servers,
> > >> domain names
> > >>> and
> > >>>> address assignments."  And in the "The final business
> > >>>> statement--WSIS
> > >>>> Geneva,"
> > >>>>
> > >> http://www.iccwbo.org/home/news_archives/2003/stories/wsis_final.asp
> > >> the
> > >>>> Honorary Chair of ICC, Richard McCormick, told the plenary
> > >> that the notion
> > >>>> of Internet governance is an oxymoron and that the net should remain
> > >>> subject
> > >>>> to private coordination.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This all seems rather different from the IHT account.  Anyone who
> > >>>> has
> > >>>> participated in its meetings knows that as currently
> > >> constituted the TF is
> > >>>> in no position to exercise oversight over ICANN or anything else; on
> > >>> policy
> > >>>> matters, it's mostly just a floating, open forum, and it has
> > >> a very tiny
> > >>>> support staff.  Making it an operating entity with authority
> > >> would be a
> > >>> huge
> > >>>> step that governments are highly unlikely to take; indeed,
> > >> mention of the
> > >>> TF
> > >>>> was removed from the WSIS texts.  So my guess is that he was simply
> > >>>> proposing that the working group governments decided to set
> > >> up at WSIS be
> > >>>> under the ICT TF.  We know that as an input to the next stage
> > >> of WSIS, the
> > >>>> working group is supposed to discuss questions like what is Internet
> > >>>> governance and what public policy dimensions might require
> > >> international
> > >>>> frameworks.  But what form the WG will take is very much up
> > >> in the air.
> > >>> The
> > >>>> governments and Kofi Anan could decide to connect it to the TF or
> > >>> separately
> > >>>> constitute a group of luminaries or follow a more constituency-based
> > >>> model;
> > >>>> only time will tell.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If my guess is wrong and Abu-Ghazaleh actually did suggest that the
> > >>>> TF
> > >>>> should acquire operational authority, from the ICC statements
> > >> above I'd
> > >>>> guess further that he was speaking entirely on his own
> > >> without clearing it
> > >>>> with private sector colleagues.   Perhaps someone who has seen his
> > >>> proposal
> > >>>> or talked to him could clarify.  Either way it doesn't
> > >> matter, the UNICT
> > >>> TF
> > >>>> seems unlikely to be in charge of anything more than a discussion,
> > >>>> if
> > >>> that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill Drake
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: ecommerce-admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> [mailto:ecommerce-admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of john bolk
> > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:04 AM
> > >>>>> To: Jeff Williams
> > >>>>> Cc: ecommerce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; icann board address;
> > >> General Assembly
> > >>>>> of the DNSO; Paul Twomey
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecommerce] ICC Seeks U.N. Takeover While
> > >> Excluding ICANN,
> > >>>>> U.S. Government from Meeting
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > >>>>> The really interesting thing about the ICC WSIS proposal is that
> > >>>>> ICC represents many big US companies such as AT&T, Microsoft,
> > >>>>> Boeing, Oracle, Verizon, AOL, etc.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> With big US companies supporting the proposal to let the UN ICT
> > >>>>> Task Force take over ICANN's responsibilities it looks like
> > >>>>> things could change soon.  Not sure I understand why a buzz org
> > >>>>> would like governments to govern the Internet though?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The proposal was stated again by an ICC official at WSIS today:
> > >>>>> http://businessatwsis.net/mainpages/position/policy/tag.php
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://businessatwsis.net/mainpages/media/press/news.php?news_id=15
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >>>>> John and all,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am not surprised to here of the unfortunate forcible removal of
> > >>> ICANN's
> > >>>>> CEO Mr. Twomey's removal form this UN ICC meeting. As ICANN has
> > >>>>> snubbed many stakeholder groups including ICC and INEGroup amongst
> > >>>>> many others form it's terribly flawed "Reform" process started by
> > >>>>> the former
> > >>>>> ICANN CEO Stuart Lynn, and finalized by Mr. Twomey. The
> > >> much discussed
> > >>>>> and debated ICANN Cabel has led it to growing disdain on global
> > >>>>> basis.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> However all this aside, it is also obvious that from earlier
> > >>>>> reports that the
> > >>>>> US is not interested nor willing to consider a major Role
> > >> of the UN or
> > >>>>> any UN agency to play a significant management role for managing
> > >>>>> the central aspects of the Internet, nor determine policy there
> > >>>>> unto
> > >>>>> pertaining.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ICANN was warned time and time again of the "error in its ways"
> > >>>>> as far back as 1999, and either ignored such warnings unwisely
> > >>>>> or did not have the intellectual capacity by which to address these
> > >>>>> many and repeated warning adequately and as such has served
> > >>>>> to divide stakeholders/users rather than act as a catalyst to
> > >>>>> unite them...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> john bolk wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > >>>>>> CircleID, Dec 09, 2003
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ICC Seeks U.N. Takeover While Excluding ICANN, U.S. Government
> > >>>>> from Meeting
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> An organization which purports to be "the voice of world
> > >>>>> business" is proposing a de facto U.N. takeover of ICANN. The
> > >>>>> proposal by a senior official of the International Chamber of
> > >>>>> Commerce (ICC) would place ICANN under the U.N. umbrella and give
> > >>>>> a strong role to U.N. agencies and to various national
> > >>>>> governments, including those that suppress free speech and free
> > >>>>> enterprise. In a move of breathtaking arrogance, the ICC refused
> > >>>>> to even invite ICANN or U.S. government representatives to the
> > >>>>> meeting at which they are presenting their proposal. As reported
> > >>>>> here by Jennifer Schenker:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> "Paul Twomey, the president of the Internet's semi-official
> > >>>>> governing body, Icann, learned Friday night what it feels like to
> > >>>>> be an outsider. Mr. Twomey, who had flown 20 hours from Vietnam
> > >>>>> to Geneva to observe a preparatory meeting for this week's United
> > >>>>> Nations' conference on Internet issues, ended up being escorted
> > >>>>> from the meeting room by guards. The officials running the
> > >>>>> meeting had suddenly decided to exclude outside observers. Mr.
> > >>>>> Twomey's ejection may underscore the resentment of many members
> > >>>>> of the international community over the way the Internet is run
> > >>>>> and over United States ownership of many important Internet
> > >>>>> resources. Although Mr. Twomey is Australian, Icann - the
> > >>>>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers - is a
> > >>>>> powerful nonprofit group established by the United States
> > >>>>> government in 1998 to oversee various technical coordination
> > >>>>> issues for the global network. Icann and the United States
> > >>>>> government are expected to come under heavy fire at the conference,
> > >>>>>  which
> > >>>>>> begins Wednesday in Geneva and will be one of the largest
> > >>>>> gatherings of high-level government officials, business leaders
> > >>>>> and nonprofit organizations to discuss the Internet's future."
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Any proposal or process for overhauling ICANN's governance that
> > >>>>> excludes key stakeholders is a major step backwards for the goals
> > >>>>> of openness and transparency. Furthermore, for a business group
> > >>>>> to propose giving a strong role in managing the infrastructure of
> > >>>>> the international information economy to the United Nations, an
> > >>>>> organization best known for unwieldily, costly, ineffective, and
> > >>>>> unaccountable bureaucracies, is downright strange. Corporations
> > >>>>> that contribute to the ICC may want to reconsider how best to use
> > >>>>> their shareholder's resources.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> http://www.circleid.com/article/394_0_1_0_C/
> > >>>>>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > governance mailing list
> > > governance@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > https://ssl.cpsr.org/mailman/listinfo/governance
> > >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecommerce mailing list
> Ecommerce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/ecommerce

Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 134k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
    Pierre Abelard

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
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