[IP] more on Who they are spying on
Begin forwarded message:
From: h_bray@xxxxxxxxx
Date: June 9, 2006 4:35:24 PM EDT
To: Eric Rachner <eric@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: dave@xxxxxxxxxx, ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they are spying on
I'm tempted to pack it in. It appears that a substantial percentage
of the
members of this list quite sincerely believe that we're in no
danger. In
essence, they want the US government to do little or nothing about
Islamist
terrorism. And with those who think this way, there's really not
much to
talk about.
For the rest, I thought it might help to focus on one controversial
intelligance tool--data mining. I wanted to ask--to what extent should
cops and spies be permitted to mine databases in order to identify
possible
bad guys? Which databases should they be permitted to use? Which
databases should be closed to them, if any? Should they have access to
personally-identifiable information without a warrant?
Hiawatha Bray
Eric Rachner
<eric@xxxxxxxxxxx
less.org> To
dave@xxxxxxxxxx,
h_bray@xxxxxxxxx
06/09/2006
04:30 cc
PM ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject
Re: [IP] more on Who they are
spying on
It just seems to me that the debate over this issue has mostly
consisted of hand-wringing about our loss of liberties. It's a
legitimate concern, but there's something else at stake too, and this
story reminds us what it is.
The trouble with this debate is that certain people keep trying to
re-frame it, quite disingenuously, as a question of liberty versus
security.
Baleful hints to the contrary, that "something else" which is at stake
here is not our security. It is the integrity of a government whose
executive branch operates outside the law, exempt from any oversight by
the legislative or judicial.
- Eric
Begin forwarded message:
Begin forwarded message:
From: h_bray@xxxxxxxxx
Date: June 7, 2006 1:00:21 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on
Well, yes. But here's where rubber meets road. It'd be darn near
impossible to investigate this kind of network if you had to get
probable cause-based warrants at every turn. Often, you have no idea
why somebody is calling someone else, or being called by them. So you
can't tell a judge what you expect to find. But if you can check who's
calling who--even if you don't know what they're saying--you can
extract pattern data that'll give you some serious clues.
This is what the government's been doing, and catching hell for. And
although the story doesn't say so, it's a good bet that this technique
helped them roll up these thugs. So do we really want the government
to be barred from doing this? Or if we want to put it under more
intensive oversight, how do we manage that without crippling the
operation?
It just seems to me that the debate over this issue has mostly
consisted of hand-wringing about our loss of liberties. It's a
legitimate concern, but there's something else at stake too, and this
story reminds us what it is.
Hiawatha Bray
David Farber
<dave@xxxxxxxxxx>
To
06/07/2006 12:32 ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PM cc
Subject
Please respond to [IP] more on Who they're spying on
dave@xxxxxxxxxx
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