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[IP] More on So Much for Law and the Constitution





Begin forwarded message:

From: Chip Bayers <chip@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: December 19, 2005 11:19:23 PM EST
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] More on So Much for Law and the Constitution

Dave, Josh Marshall has posted some pretty convincing speculation on his blog about what, exactly, the Administration is up to here, based on Senator Rockerfeller's comments about his conversations with them. If it's true, it sounds like it's Carnivore, or Son of Carnivore. Key paragraphs from an email to Marshall:

"I suspect that others have noticed an odd element in Sen. Rockefeller's letter. He takes pains to point out that he is neither a lawyer nor a technical specialist - presumably, the latter referring to the technology being proposed for the non-FISA wiretaps that the Administration has put into place. And, he complains that he needs the help of staff to make sense of what he was briefed on.

"It's an odd comment, if all that was sought by Cheney was the ability to look, prospectively, at telephone or computer communications. Where's the technical novelty? and for that matter, the law isn't that complex. You might expect Rockefeller to say, I disagree, but he wouldn't stress the need for staff help in order to review complex new issues of law and technology.

"But it fits together if what was being proposed was to look, either prosepectively or retrospectively, at everyone's E-mail -- which the NSA is reportedly capable of -- and then filter it for certain key words. Presumably, those messages which meet certain search criteria would then be culled for further study, or longer-term monitoring might be done of both the sender and recipient.

"That sort of dizzying effort would raise both technical and legal issues, such as: what technical capabilities and safeguards are possible to implement; what is the legality of read-and-discard searches, and so on. Indeed, since I believe that retrospective searches could be done, the Administration might be seeking to look at all prior communications as well, once a hit was found. No FISA authorization would be possible, since this sort of activity was not contemplated by that law."

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/007286.php


Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@xxxxxxxx>
Date: December 18, 2005 4:42:00 PM EST
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Marc D'Angelis" <mcdangelis@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [IP] More on So Much for Law and the Constitution

I'm puzzled by your comment, Marc. Are you saying that the government lawyers presume that everyone being searched and whose property is being seized is a terrorist or would-be-terrorist?

I don't think the government lawyers are *stupid* enough to think that everyone whose home or office is invaded without a warrant would not be an innocent citizen or visitor, who would not seek recourse.

IMPO, it's now impeachment time - unless, of course, you think that if they make a mistake, they will just "disappear" the innocent civilian, so they can't complain...

There aren't higher crimes and misdemeanors than pre-Patriot Act warrantless searches and seizures, or the assertion by the executive that he will defy the expiration of the Patriot Act provisions, which were not clearly Constitutional in the first place.

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Marc D'Angelis" <mcdangelis@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: December 17, 2005 11:24:10 PM EST
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: More on So Much for Law and the Constitution

It is actually a fairly simple matter to understand the thinking of
government lawyers that would go into the calculation of the legal
status of interceptions of private conversations in the pursuit of
defense against terrorism. It would likely follow these lines.  What
follows is not necessarily my thinking, but rather the "devil's
advocate" view of the likely thinking of those who, right now, provide
legal advice to those who serve us in Washington.

First, the operative constitutional language is this, from the 4th
Amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The amendment prohibits "unreasonable searches and seizures". This is
very broad and flexible language, and it is intended to be so. The
definition of "reasonable" is - has to be - considered in light of the
purpose of the search and the evil to be avoided.

We of course have developed customs and expectations, and legal
requirements based on them. One of them is addressed in the amendment: the issuance of a warrant, that is, advance approval by a judge of the
proposed search before it is carried out. But the amendment does not
*require* a warrant in each and every situation. Our legal system
requires a warrant (absent recognized exceptions) in the criminal
context. It is our expectation that warrant will be sought, because that
is what we have become accustomed to, in the context of criminal
investigations.

But these customs and expectations do not necessarily fully apply in
other contexts, including military actions and threats to national
security. Both of these are extraordinary rather than ordinary
situations, and the "normal" rules may not be considered to apply.

Second, give consideration to the risk and possible consequences of
governmental behavior that is either illegal or arguably. Why don't
police officers simply break into the homes of suspects and seize
evidence of crimes they might find? There are two possible reasons.
First, if the government sought to introduce the evidence in a criminal prosecution, the evidence would be prohibited if the court found that it
was seized without proper consideration of 4th Amendment protections,
without a warrant. Second, the aggrieved citizen could file a civil
lawsuit under the 1867 Civil Rights Act, 42 USC 1983, which provides for
an award of money damages in the event of a violation of a citizen's
civil rights.

But terrorists and their cohorts, or people who might be terrorists and their cohorts, are not being investigated for criminal prosecution, and
many of them are unlikely to try to use the American civil justice
system to seek money damages. Therefore, the only two negative
consequences that our legal system provides against a particular illegal
"search or seizure" are of little or no moment to the people who are
affected by these investigative efforts.

Thus, the government lawyer could conclude that it is well worth the
risk to use questionable or quasi-illegal methods to obtain information
about terrorist activities, without worrying too much about such
niceties as judges, warrants, or probable cause standards.


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