[IP] more on More strange statistics from the Department of Defense (about Hummers)
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Pistritto <jcp@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: July 6, 2005 5:23:53 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] More strange statistics from the Department of
Defense (about Hummers)
According to this:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412160015
The number of Humvees in Iraq is 16,000 in December 2004 counting all
the armored ones. (level one or level two). There are certainly
some completely un-armored ones as well. I think we can safely
assume this source is not pro-administration.
As an owner of a Hummer H1 (essentially the same thing as an
unarmored Humvee), $20K for a bolt on armor kit isnt unusual. The
winch kit for the H1 has a list price of almost $10K and that's not a
mil spec part. (it has the winch itself, plus replaces the bumper
with a heavy duty version and the front springs becuase the thing is
heavier). When you do the armor kit, you would have to do the
springs as well (on front *and* rear). To hold up the extra weight.
(the bolt on armor kit weighs between 1000 and 2000 lbs. depending on
which components the military puts in it's level two armor kit).
Given that its the government and they're in a hurry, $20K each for
10K armor kits seems pretty likely. Then the 6000 or so new Level
One Hummvees probably cost $150K each (at least). Totally unarmored
civilian Hummers list for $110K, again, no mil spec parts, and no
accessories the military tends to buy.
A number of civilian H-1s have been up-armored by private companies,
and this is the technique they use. I would not feel *really safe*
driving a Hummer with kevlar doors, Lexan windows, and the 1/2 inch
thick armor panel on the bottom which is the typical "low level"
armor protection kit next to an IED with a couple of mortar shells in
it, for instance. Although someone shooting at you with a handgun or
a light rifle will likely be frustrated.
Level One Humvees are built with the armor capability from the ground
up - different components are used. There were very few Level One
vehicles before Iraqi Freedom. (I think about 200). It was largely
an experimental program at the time. But then the Hummer/Humvee
isn't a tank - in combat it wasn't supposed to be driving around
where it could get shot at with heavy weapons. Armored doors and
floor pan were added (the basis of the level two kit) for those
situations where small arms fire was likely. It was never intended
the Hummers would be taking RPG fire, or large calibre artillery
shells (which form the basis of a lot of IEDs). Having worked at BRL
in the past, when you're talking armor protection against battlefield
type weapons, you're in a whole different class of armor than you see
welded onto most HMMWV's in Iraq.
The total production of Humvees/HMMWV's of all types is here:
http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles_hmmwv_background.php/amSid/
53d85bcea5a8ae182d2ebb154f259a13
In particular 100,000 were produced for the US government through
1993 (starting in 1983) Not all of those are military, the Forest
Service and some other agencies also use them, but most are probably
in the military. M998A2 Humvees (which share the same engine my H1
has, original military vehicles used a slightly smaller engine) have
been produced since 2000 at the rate of approximately 4000/year
(31,474 over 7 years). During those years, between 1000 and 2000
Hummer H1 civilian vehicles were produced each year on the same
assembly line. (in 1994, the year mine was produced, there were only
about 870 civilian H1s produced). No civilian Hummers were produced
at all before 1992. And yes, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger does indeed
own the very first civilian one.
As you might have noticed if you go by a Hummer dealer, there are
almost no civilian H-1s now. Since we know we've made 6000 fully
armored new ones in the last year and a half, that probably accounts
for nearly the entire pre-war production rate of the *one* factory
that makes Hummer H-1s. I suspect they can double production at that
plant, which might mean we're making as many as 10K per year at the
moment (I have not seen this number publicly quoted). We have to
replace losses (whihc have been > 1000 vehicles at this point I
believe). (the popular Hummer H-2 vehicle is produced in a
different factory purpose built for that vehicle and is based on a
non-military frame.) This factory is located in South Bend, Indiana,
they used to give tours of it, stop by if you're there. Maybe you'll
buy one of your own!
Thanks,
-jcp-
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Farber" <dave@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Ip ip" <ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 1:52 PM
Subject: [IP] More strange statistics from the Department of Defense
Begin forwarded message:
From: Robert Lee <robertslee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: July 5, 2005 11:37:54 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: More strange statistics from the Department of Defense
Reply-To: robertslee@xxxxxxxxxxx
For IP, if not too caustic.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?
type=politicsNews&storyID=2005-07-05T213209Z_01_N05155078_RTRIDST_0_PO
LI TICS-SECURITY-USA-WARS-DC.XML
Military brass rethinking two war strategy. In supporting
possible need to rethink they state:
“A senior Army officer noted that many of the more than 1,700 U.S.
troops who lost their lives in Iraq died because the military had
not anticipated the need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars
on armor to protect military vehicles against improvised
explosive devices.”
These are the armor kits that caused Rumsfeld to embarrass
himself. A reporter asked why the Humvees were not armored and
Rumsfeld, who never fought in a war, said, “We fight with the army
we have, not with the army we want.” He then went on to say that
the government was having them made as fast as they could but that
there was a bottleneck at production. Rumsfeld reported that in
this great nation we could source only 200 per month.
The very next day the manufacturers of the armor said there was no
bottleneck, the Department of Defense was simply refusing to buy
them as fast as they could be made. Which, of course, passed the
smell test. After all, the soldiers themselves, in their off
hours, were making several dozen of them each month out of scrap.
In the article below the general tries to say that armoring these
humvees costs “hundreds of millions of dollars”. Let’s examine
this just a tad. Let’s say that “hundreds of millions of dollars
is more than one hundred million and less than five hundred
million. How about three hundred million? Now if we had 300
hundred million Humvees every armor set would cost $1. If we had
3 million each would cost $100. If we had 1 million each one
would cost $300. Do we have 1 million humvees there? No. We do
not have 1 million people there. We have about 150,000 people
there. So if everyone has a humvee then the armor kits cost
$2,000. But we do not have 150,000 humvees there. If we had
15,000 then each set would cost $20,000. But we do not have
15,000 humvees there and $20,000 per set of cold rolled seems a
tad high already. Do we have 1,500? Then each set costs $200,000
(more than the humvee).
All of which begs the question, did the army truly think that as in
Belgium at the end of WWII beautiful women would dance out of
doorways and stuff roses down the barrels of the guns? That is
what Rumsfeld said. Did he mean it?
Oh well, best not to go further and risk not being a patriot.
Robert Lee
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