[IP] more on 4 more plus comment on Gilmore vs DOJ
[ Just to historic. Airlines required identification PRIOR to 9/11.
They had all types of reasons but when push came to shove, the only
workingly valid reason was it killed the market for partyial tickets --
I buy a cheap round trip PIT top SFO and sell the return to you to use.
All othe reasons were to put it mildly hype. Licenses are useless as
ID. Any teen that cannot get a forged license that will fool the
checker should hang up.
Dave]
Begin forwarded message:
From: Mike Rain <ip@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: August 16, 2004 5:30:02 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
Dave,
I am a dues-paying member of the ACLU, EFF, and Amnesty International.
The rights and freedoms our founding fathers wrote into the
constitution are awesome and precious and are what make this country
great. We remove them at our peril.
But I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why I should disagree
with Mr. Bray on this issue. I just don't feel oppressed in any way
when an airline asks for my ID. There are people who want to commit
mass murder on innocent people in order to make a political or
religious or racist point. That is unacceptable. I understand full
well that asking for ID will not stop all terrorists. But I have to
figure that it will help. Locking my door when I leave the house won't
stop all burglars, but that doesn't mean I should just give up and
leave my doors wide open.
Requiring identification from people who seek to buy a gun or drive a
car seems like a reasonable precaution. If asking airline passengers
for identification will help prevent mass tragedies, even a little bit,
then it is such a trivial sacrifice that I can't believe people are
filing lawsuits about it. Am I missing something?
- Mike
Begin forwarded message:
From: Dave Wilson <dave@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: August 16, 2004 4:47:55 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
Hmm. Mr. Bray argues that the airline has a right to demand compliance
with certain rules, as in the rule that people with disabilities can't
sit in exit rows. Does an airline have right to keep people with
disabilities from flying at all? See this story moved by Reuters today:
Limbless Woman Sues Air France Over 'Torso' Snub
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040816/od_nm/
life_bias_dc
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A wheelchair-bound woman with no limbs sued Air
France for discrimination on Friday, alleging she was kept off a flight
by a gate agent who told her a "torso cannot possibly fly on its own."
Adele Price, 42, a British citizen, sued the airline in Manhattan
federal court seeking unspecified damages.
Price, who was born without limbs because her mother took the drug
thalidomide during pregnancy, said in the suit she is able to
manipulate a wheelchair and has traveled by air many times.
The suit states that she had bought a ticket in 2000 for travel
between Manchester, England and New York. After Price had checked her
luggage, she alleged that she was stopped by an Air France agent who
told her that "a head, one bottom and a torso cannot possibly fly on
its own."
Price said in the suit that Air France let her take another flight to
New York but only after she was able to get a companion to go with her.
However, Price said she had to pay for the companion's airfare and
lodging.
She said the airline also made it difficult for her to return from
John F. Kennedy airport to Britain by requiring her to get opinions
from four U.S. doctors certifying she was able to fly alone.
A spokeswoman for Air France had no immediate comment.
From: hbray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers,
Please'
Date: August 16, 2004 10:24:52 PM EDT
To: toddp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, watha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Hmmm...9th circuit, eh? Is that the same band of Einsteins who decided
that
Under God had to be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? Well, in
that
case there's no telling what they may come up with.
Still, the Supremes have smacked that court down on a regular basis.
So if
Mr. Gilmore expects to fly without ID anytime soon, he'd better get
used to
driving cross-country.
As for the Fourth Amendment, what of it? Doesn't apply to airlines,
anyway--just the government. Besides, what's unreasonable about asking
for
ID? About 98 percent of the public sees nothing at all unreasonable
about
it. If you do, walk.
Matter of fact, if you wear an Osama T-shirt, you probably won't be
allowed
on an airplane either. Go home and change.
We are in the middle of a real war here. A genuine, honest-to-goodness
shooting war. The idea that we should be wasting our time arguing over
whether it's right to have to show ID before boarding a plane is too
silly
to deserve further discussion. I'm not trying to be rude; I just can't
take
you seriously, or Mr. Gilmore either.
Hiawatha Bray
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Pinkerton [mailto:toddp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 6:13 PM
To: watha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
Mr. Bray,
As a longtime Boston reader of your column, I'm somewhat surprised by
your
extreme reaction to Mr. Gilmore's case.
Rather than dismiss you out-of-hand as having "a severe deficit of
common
sense" as you did to Mr. Gilmore, I'd like to take this opportunity to
address your position in this case.
If I were to take a stab at refuting your claim that Americans have "no
such
right" to travel freely in their own country, I'd direct you to
ammendment
IV of the US Constitution, which tells us:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures...."
But I won't. There are much more capable people than I to interpret the
Bill
of Rights for you, should you ever need to use them. In fact, some can
be
found on Dave's IP list.
I could draw into question your assertion that there exist 'reasonable'
requirements for (federally-regulated) airlines to impose on their
passengers. Can I wear an American flag lapel pin? Or an Osama
T-shirt? Who
decides what is appropriate? Must I give my name? Address? SSN? Sexual
preference? Favorite color?
But again, I don't need to take this tack either Mr Bray, because you
yourself correctly point out that
"the airlines have decided to make a few half-hearted stabs at keeping
us
safe... My only complaint is that it's still too easy to defeat such
security systems."
So my question to you Mr. Bray is this : if these "Security" measures
are
easily defeatable, why impose this useless requirement on law-abiding
citizens? Why not develop a smarter approach? Such an approach is
difficult,
yes, but anything worth doing is. We do not harm our own citizenry
simply
because Something Must Be Done About the Terrorists.
Just like the rest of us, Dan Gilmore wants to be safe when he travels.
Unlike most of us however, he's aware enough to realize that what's
being
done now in the name of Security is not making him, or any American,
safer.
This case is a call to action, a demand for *better* security and
protection
of the freedoms we Americans hold dear.
Its time we expose this new regime of Security for what it is - a sham.
But then again, I'm not trying to convince you, Mr. Bray -- it's the 9th
Circuit Court of Appeals I'm concerned about.
Thanks for giving me something to think about, as I stop reading the
Boston
Globe.
-Todd Pinkerton
Somerville, MA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
David Farber
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 3:50 PM
To: Ip
Subject: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
Many have asked why I give Mr Bray distribution. While I most of the
time
disagree with him, knowing what the other side thinks is part of being
aware. djf
Begin forwarded message:
From: Hiawatha Bray <watha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: August 16, 2004 2:10:27 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx, Ip <ip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [IP] New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
By all means, keep us informed. Let the word go forth bar and wide,
that
there's some guy named Gilmore with time on his hands and a severe
deficit
of common sense.
One more time, people--you do NOT have a right to travel on an airplane
without identifying yourself. There is NO SUCH RIGHT. The airlines are
perfectly free to set reasonable requirements for its passengers. For
instance, if you're disabled or obese, you can't sit in the emergency
exit
row, for fear of trapping people on the plane during an accident. You
don't
like it, stay on the ground.
Same principle here. With gibbering maniacs seeking to kill helpless
people
on airplanes, the airlines have decided to make a few half-hearted
stabs at
keeping us safe. Among other things, they expect to know the
identities of
those who fly. My only complaint is that it's still too easy to defeat
such
security systems. I can't imagine the folly of demanding that all such
security efforts be abandoned, because they give offense to Mr. Gilmore.
Ah well, crazy as our courts are, I doubt they're crazy enough to waste
much
time on this case.
Hiawatha Bray
Boston Globe
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Begin forwarded message:
From: Greg Wood <greghirthwood@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: August 17, 2004 7:05:01 AM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] more on New Website: John Gilmore vs. 'Papers, Please'
Dave,
But Bray's reply misses this crucial fact: it's the government--not the
airlines--that are mandating the ID check. Big difference. If it were
only company policy, I don't think Gilmore would have a beef--he could
patronize an airline that has policies he agrees with.
-Greg
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