<<< Date Index >>>     <<< Thread Index >>>

[IP] more on Your people are growing increasingly worried about a 'police state.' For such an educated audience,





Begin forwarded message:

From: Wulf Losee <qx49@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: August 5, 2004 8:53:02 PM EDT
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: NMunro@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [IP] Your people are growing increasingly worried about a 'police state.' For such an educated audience,

Dave:
I don't know if Neil has ever traveled in police states, but I have -- and, although the US has a long way to go, it's starting feel like one's I remember traveling in.

For instance:
1. Now we have to show our IDs to travel by airplane. And I understand, that we will soon be forced to show our IDs when traveling on trains and busses. How is this any different from the former Soviet Union or China (before the current "liberal" government) where one had to show one's internal passport to travel?

2. American Citizens are being detained (and possibly tortured) without due process (in Cuba of all places!). How is this different from a police state?

3. Protestors are not allowed anywhere near the President during his public appearances. Hell, Democrats aren't allowed near the President during public appearances! To me it sounds like an African kleptocracy, where the President-for-Life is insulated from the opinions of his subjects.

4. The current administration is choosing it's scientific advisors based on political correctness, instead of academic credentials. Hmmm. Sounds like Lysenkoism to me. The spirit of Trofim Denisovich lives on.

5. The political climate is such that supporters of the current administration feel that they can, without shame, shout down opponents and dissenters as "traitors" (Sean Hannity's writings comes to mind). This is an administration supported by true believers.

6. The latest Patriot Act would make wiretapping and surveillance of US citizen's possible without a court order (if I understand it correctly). How is this any different in spirit from the behavior of East Germany?

Frankly, I had mixed thoughts about sending this email out. I worried that it would call attention to myself, and that I would receive a visit from the authorities. But then I remember that one of my ancestors died on Lexington Commons, 229 years ago, fighting for the liberty of his people and his country, and I can only feel ashamed that I had any second thoughts about posting this broadside.

--Wulf


At 01:36 PM 8/5/04 -0400, you wrote:

___

Dave Farber  +1 412 726 9889



...... Forwarded Message .......
From: "Munro, Neil" <NMunro@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: dave@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:45:58 -0400
Subj: Your people are growing increasingly worried about a 'police state.'
For such an educated audience,



they seem to lack any sense of proportion, a sense of history or an
awareness of human nature.

It's not as if real police states don't exist still; One can fly to Cuba
quite easily, or to Iran with some difficulty, or even defect to Saudi
Arabia and North Korea. The intrusiveness of their governments, their
indifference to public opinion, their brutality and ruthlessness, are the
hallmarks of a real police state.

In the US, we are merely enjoying growing inconvenience and annoyance amid
the perpetual pull and push demanded by our simultaneous desires for
personal autonomy and public safety. This balance will shift back and forth as the public and the elites argue over its costs and benefits. Of course there will be abuses; The right will complain about too-strict gun laws, property seizures and judicial-indifference to politics' property-grabs,
while the left will complain about public stigma of new lifestyles, of
legislative curbs on personal autonomy, and of expanded police-powers.

But there is no chance that that we will have a police state, even if Bush
is reelected into perpetuity. The claim is so ludicrous that it is not
worth a counter, but parody.
John Ashcroft thinks you are important enough for him to read your diary! The Christian Conservatives have hypnotized the Supreme Court! Tom Delay is
asking you to buy a gun!
The horror.

Not just parody, but also contempt. Millions of people have died from
police-states over the last 90 years. The communists killed roughly 95
million. The Nazi's destroyed another 50 million. The Japanese militarists destroyed at least 30 million. North Korea recently starved one million of
its own people to death rather than admit internal failure.
Arab autocracies - led by Saddam -- can surely claim to have killed a
million or three. If you want proof, grab a spade and a plane ticket.
And we claim we're living in a police state because of intrusive luggage
searches?  Popular anti-drug laws? A religious Attorney General? The
embarrassment of discovering that a bureaucrat knows you read Noam Chomsky? That some tens of people will get jailed for terrorist-plots they did not
join?
Public safety will inevitably generate errors and burdens, some of which are avoidable, and all of which should be minimized. In some controversies, the ACLU will be correct. In others, the police and Ashcroft will have the
public and the law on their side.
But surely the many people who lived and died in real police-states should, would and do object to our wrapping ourselves in their terror and deaths
for our own ends.

        Neil
        (speaking personally, of course)





-------------------------------------
You are subscribed as qx49@xxxxxxxxxxx
To manage your subscription, go to
  http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/


-------------------------------------
You are subscribed as roessler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To manage your subscription, go to
 http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/